[Request] Welcome Setup page for Newbies (and Windows Server setup)

dr.sivaram.mecheri · December 15, 2023, 2:43am

Hi ,

I am a doctor from tamilnadu. I already run a propriety software for my hospital. But it lacks latest features and latest standards. I am looking into Bahmni for some years now. I want to try it , last time with vagrant type , i had great difficulty. Anyway this time i was happy to see docker version. Installed Docker for desktop and installed it and was to get into the web ui pretty easily.

This is where i am kind of stuck

I am assuming the entire pack(standard version) i am running is run on a demo database ? Which is pretty cool to try out some stuffs , but i dont think there is any mention of it in UI.
I really wish there was a initial setup page , which takes the user through various setup page to get things customized.
Is there a way to verify that entire setup is properly installed ?
I am testing bahmni docker currently on my PC , i have plans to put this on my server and make a trial run for my staffs once the setup is acceptable for me on my PC. Once i do so , how do i expose the URL to lan ?
If the entire package is slightly modified to be a simple process (docker implementation seems pretty easy now, compared to previous version) , i really think many doctors will start using by themselves.

If i still couldnt implement or get it working as per my wishes , I would consider implementors.

Also i saw drug list , but seems little less in number, is there any database i could import for complete list of drugs with different brand names (india specific) ?

gsluthra · December 15, 2023, 7:47am

Thanks for the feedback, and glad to hear that docker setup was much easier to get started.

The standard version does run on pre-configured database (with master data already in it, but it doesn’t have patients/etc). It is far easier to modify existing DB to suit hospital needs, than starting fresh db, and setting up all the master data yourself (drugs, tests, etc). We intended that using docker people should be able to quickly evaluate Bahmni, and then if it meets their needs, take the next step of “preparing it for go live”, which might require more drugs, users, forms, reports, etc to be done. But having to do this upfront would have made it a pain to even demo it.
Yes, an initial setup page would be nice to have. Unfortunately there are thousands of configurations one can do, and also some people will choose some sets of data, and some choose another set of data / forms / components. But having some “add on starter kits” can possibly help people choose among options.
With docker, in general, if you are using standard images, things are already verified. You are not really “installing” stuff, as much as “bringing up existing pre-tested images”. We use E2E automation tests to verify our test environments, but for end users, the only way to currently verify is to login into the systems they need, and validate if things look good. It will be nice if there was some “automated way” of validating the system for end users, but we don’t have anything right now.
That should be easy. Have cc’ed @mohant from our team to answer this. From a security perspective though installing a firewall, taking regular backups, anti-virus, etc on your PC is a must. See: https://bahmni.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/BAH/pages/2342780946/Securing+and+Protecting+the+Bahmni+Server.
Yes, we have been hearing feedback from people about docker option being easy.
Ideally, using a service provider like IPLit, that offers Bahmni Lite on the cloud, in a more secure, upgradable manner, might be less headache and safer for long term. See: https://www.bahmnilite.com/
Some more drug list is here: clinic-config/masterdata/configuration/drugs/drug.csv at main · Bahmni-HWC/clinic-config · GitHub. IPLIt above also maintain their own huge india drug list.

Ideally someone with Linux expertise can help in configuration / security. Better to be safe when hosting patient data on computers.

Please feel free to join Bahmni slack and ask questions to the team there also. https://bahmni.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/BAH/pages/414646273/Communication+Channels+and+Tools

mohant · December 15, 2023, 8:04am

Hello @dr.sivaram.mecheri, It is great to hear that docker setup was easy to start with.

Regarding point 4, if your machine is connected on a local LAN, then the Bahmni will be accessible with the IP address of your machine over the LAN. Example: https://192.168.1.100. You can find your IP address by running ipconfig for Windows or ifconfig on Linux distributions.

Note: Your if you have a network firewall installed, then you need to tune your firewall rules to allow access.

dr.sivaram.mecheri · December 15, 2023, 9:48am

@gsluthra @mohant Thanks to both.

I will try to work on bahmni for few more days to get things going.

As of now i dont want to disturb the current setup , as staffs are trained to the current software. Have to setup by setup introduce , almost bahmni running parallel to existing software.

I have just downloaded the training videos , will look into them when free and learn myself about bahmni in detail.

I totally agree that each setup will have different needs , but it would great to wall through newuser like

Name of hospital/clinic
Upload logo
Which modules to activate ?
General Department setup , like say how many OPD? Casualty ,OT if any ,LAB ,etc…
General info on doctors and assigned OPD no for them etc… This way , atleast there will be some customization at start to have “feel at home” environment. People would love to see thier names/logo etc and they can start working thier way in.

For ex : i use nextcloud , it has basic registration and basic step by step procedure etc.

I dont trust my internet , in my area… and i am not a cloud person , I love to have have my data at location itself. Since i value my patients record even more. Even the current software runs fully locally.

The drug list is great , thanks. Wish we can have brand names associated as well. Wish someone pulls data from website like 1mg etc. many consultants do use branded drugs. Consider this a request. Or let users know how to pull such database from online …

will join slack soon.

Only thing i am afraid is when something happens(error mostly) , currently my software vendor resolves them in few hours max. That being said , there is still hundreds of errors in my current software. But when such thing happens with bahmni , i have to take time off my practice and solve it.

Implementors , do they also support post installation ?

@mohant , if you are close to me , kindly do pm me , thanks.

dr.sivaram.mecheri · December 19, 2023, 4:17am

wanted to install from my server (windows server 2019) and its been two days i have no luck. things i tried

Docker for windows doesnt work or getting it to work is proving to be very tedious. I have to install server 2022 i guess for wsl2 support and easy working of docker for windows .
Tried to install docker through ubuntu on virtualbox , hit with KVM error… stuck there. I think bypassing hypervisor like tech in tough
Tried to install ubuntu directly on win server 19 through wsl… its up and running , but getting error when i try to pull … almost last step… Seems to be some permission issue , which i am trying to resolve… but couldnt.

So my initial thought on docker setup works great on win 10 , not much on win server , even after activating hypervisor , etc.

This leaves me with one last option of going with vagrant box. But even in documentation it says to go for docker …

I think it the dockers compatibility we are having issues with…

Seems like i am at same position as some years before when i tried bahmni. stuck to get it up and running to test.(on server)

mohant · December 19, 2023, 6:04am

Hello @dr.sivaram.mecheri We have not tested actively on windows installations of docker. Have you tried installing Docker Desktop for windows.Install Docker Desktop on Windows | Docker Docs. This could solve your problems. Also you can follow this documentation to fix permission issues. Understand permission requirements for Windows | Docker Docs

Also before starting Bahmni on docker, you can try running some sample containers to make sure docker works properly and then give a try with Bahmni.

dr.sivaram.mecheri · January 11, 2024, 4:02pm

After almost 20 days , I am now able to run openmrs page. Thanks to @mohant for helping me out. The major issues were

Windows Server 2019 should be listed in “NON COMPATIBLE”. Its almost impossible to get docker running and over that getting container running is much more bigger issue.
The setup even though is very simplified , it does keep failing time and again. There are many issues which poped up which i think should be listed and proper solution be given for newbies like me.
The Initial setup needs much more visual representation or better warning . Everytime the OpenMRS needs to be given AMPLE amount of time to get its things get finished. If it doesnt , the entire setup doesnt work smoothly.

Coming to recommendation

# Clone the Bahmni docker repo using SSH keys
git clone git@github.com:Bahmni/bahmni-docker.git

# If the above command gives error, use the HTTPs version of the command as follows:
git clone https://github.com/Bahmni/bahmni-docker.git

Please move the second command to top to save time and hassle. The first link/command doesnt work.atleast out of hte box , i think it requires account login etc. Please move the second command to top in the instruction page.

Kindly list non-compatible OS. Win Server 2019 and below should be listed.
I still feel there should be a intro/setup page !! , if its just a re-install , a simple restore from backup at that page would suffice.

Let me run the software and see how it is. It shouldnt take this long time …

dr.sivaram.mecheri · January 15, 2024, 4:03am

Ok , I managed to get it running from a normal windows 10 OS , which is currently running(bahmni) from my mini PC. I have it exposed to network and now literally everything on my lan/hospital wifi can access bahmni (this is a great feel personally for me…after so much time - to be exact after a month of starting this thread)

I am only running the demo version as suggested by @mohant

As i keep working … I now understand many aspects of the software. The ease of using it… etc.

IT SIMPLY WORKS !!!

today will be exploring more into odoo and how to get stocks , drugs entered etc…

TBH , the Documentation for bahmni is too good… Added to it ,the videos on youtube.

For starters , install VB code editor and docker extension to make your life easy…

I think the purpose of this thread is over. I will start a new one to guide me in getting things setup as i like.

Thanks for everyone.

gsluthra · January 15, 2024, 5:58am

Thank you for your patient and feedback @dr.sivaram.mecheri

Given that this is a Free/Opensource software targetted towards NGOs and low-resource environments, the budget to develop, run, maintain, evolve a complex software like Bahmni is usually limited. Most adopters of Bahmni worldwide are using this software for free. We rely on investments / donors to fund the development/support.

In earlier (non-Docker) versions of Bahmni, many folks struggled to install Bahmni and get it up and running on CentOS. The docker version is a move towards ensuring people can be up and running in less than a day (RUNNING == seeing a demo version) on the OS of their choice, due to wide support by Docker. Every hospital/clinic has different requirements, and although i agree with your feedback on having a setup screen, building it across multiple systems: Bahmni EMR, Lab, Odoo, Crater, Metabase, etc is not easy – and not everyone wants all services, so the setup needs to be “smart”.

We have focussed primarily towards Linux OS because of its non-proprietary, opensource and Cloud support, in our targeted geographies. Windows is risky in general as a server option, from Malware/Virus perspective, and we usually recommend customers to only use Windows for end-user browser (hospital/clinic staff access), and not for the server instance.

But, we do see huge popularity of Windows in India, and do need to consider supporting it more out-of-the-box. Even our own teams don’t have access to Windows environment, and most folks use Linux/Mac. So, reproducing issues becomes cumbersome for us.

Thanks again for your persistence, and patience. And we hope to incorporate your feedback.

dr.sivaram.mecheri · January 15, 2024, 10:51am

Thanks for creating this wonderful software.

Yes , i am one of the person who tried vagrant and left almost 2 or 3 years before. . Docker version is simply smooth. (@mohant did say that installing on a ubuntu machine will work like charm) TBH , the non-server version of windows doesnt have any issue. I tried on my personal pc first , and then only installed on pc in my hospital.

As for setup page …i now realize its not of much use. Although to reach many installation in India , i would suggest developers to bundle the entire setup into a MSI/Exe file and distribute or even a simple script will do wonders. Take for example how Stable Diffusion is packed into easy installation, but it runs script to get latest git,python,etc etc … Just a suggestion to even enhance the simplification of installing.

TBH , If i had got bahmni installed and got to front page few years back , we would have adopted and would have been running since then…

Since i know my colleagues , they would really want things simple. (download - install - enter basic stuff - get on their work). Why i am saying is , most of the stuff are very simplified in Bahmni. As i keep exploring the demo , the more i realize how smooth the entire setup is. Not complicated… Very simplified.

Bahmni lite is pretty good idea.It will surely help small setups to get things done and will also become popular faster.

I think windows docker is not bad either. Only thing is Window server environment is not playing well. May be i am doing it wrong… not enabling something , or some service is blocking docker/virtual machine service. I am not sure , but On plain windows , it works!!

Again , kindly look into Stable diffusion windows installation process… (GitHub - AUTOMATIC1111/stable-diffusion-webui: Stable Diffusion web UI)

I would greatly look into how data is entered and how easy we can make. When i discussed with @mohant , i said , we should think how easy and simplified we can make bahmni for staffs. Even for doctors for that case , in india(given the patient load). I said everything needs to be a click away, avoid entering as much as possible.

We can classify entry points which needs manual entry each time (Name, ph.no , ) Those which can be retrieved from either pre-entered value(populate from older enteries like Village,diagnosis,) , or from database (for eg drugs), or entered easily with slider ((temp,pr,spo2,abdomen girth,BP))/numpad ( blood values,etc).

So far the registration works,consulation is ok … needs exploration and will try to modify myself , lab works excellently. Still the value entry page is cluttered with boxes !! Value entry page if it could mimic the final outpage print form it would be super easy for staffs. Also kindly CMIW , the result entry page lists all pending entry boxes , this includes all list of patient , I wish there was option to show name and ascerion number of patient , instead of ascercion number alone… But still the lab is fluid!! the workflow is great. simple. Also wish there was option to intergrate with the machine to read the values straight from it.

Today i briefed my staffs roughly on the working of bahmni , they wre truely excited on how ease the software is. Will be running the demo version of some more days , will discuss with @mohant on how to get this going further.

I will start a new thread and keep all queries there.

Will first have to integrate odoo(billing,pharmacy billing,etc) and get it going . That is the real deal to get it working smoothly.

@mohant did say there is possiblity of making entry through tags/clickable words. Say for example most common complaints or complaints we enter can populate as words(not drop down) and we can simply click those complains , new complaints can be entered afresh. This would make life easy for staffs and doctors.

gsluthra · January 15, 2024, 12:51pm

@dr.sivaram.mecheri – Totally agree on all your inputs / thoughts Appreciate it!

Glad to hear how you (and staff members) found Bahmni simple and ready-to-go!

UPGRADING TO ODOO-v16:

Please note, the Bahmni team is in process of migrating to Odoo-v16 (the version in docker until now was Odoo-v10, which is very old and not supported by Odoo). I would recommend to move into production / real world use with Odoo-v16 (since it will be available in next 1-1.5 month with Bahmni). The Odoo-v16 is functionally not so different that Odoo-v10, but the UI is a bit better and slightly different. If you setup all your master data in Odoo-v10, then you will resist the idea of upgrading to Odoo-v16 again.

To see a demo of Odoo-v16 and Bahmni, please see this page: https://bahmni.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/BAH/pages/3293478913/Upgrade+Bahmni+to+Odoo+v16

LAB SYSTEM:

I agree with inputs on huge number of boxes. That is the original OpenELIS software design that we packaged into Bahmni (just like how we package Odoo). We do agree that OpenELIS can be much better / easier in its UX, but we also got feedback that it is simple and easy for people to understand, so we haven’t prioritised it. In long term, we are going to move away from this version of OpenELIS, most likely instead to BikaLIMS (we wanted to do that in 2023, but never got to it, and now for 2024, it depends on budgets). See this: Introducing Bahmni HL7 LIS Integration (with Senaite LIMS) - #22 by akanter

I think it would be a good idea to have a separate Thread on OpenMRS Talk for each feedback area and topic. Thanks again!

dr.sivaram.mecheri · January 15, 2024, 3:24pm

First and foremost , thanks a lot for being so responsive. This is in stark contrast to something like Unraid forum(paid). I think its more about being in love with your work.

Please take my suggestion as genuine concern on how to improve , rather than considering it as nit picking.

My roadmap for migrating to bahmni is only when i am confident that entire setup is under my control. this is also one of the prime reason i wanted to move away from proprietary software. Within a day or two , i am confident how bahmni is working under the hood roughly. Thanks to separate containers and pretty much nice explanation on each part. Although i way too off regarding form creation( i saw in one of the video…)

Also until pharmacy and billing is flawlessly working wrt to GST , i wont be shifting. These are the areas which i am not the right person , and i wont have time to look into to get things working. This is the area i might need implementors.

TBH , ELIS is working great… simple and neat !!

In this above screenshot… The boxes arent lined up, there is no need to have referral reason for all individual test. Yes there are cases where we bill the patient for lab test in my hospital and will refer it out , this can be automatically inputted to refer at the time of creating the test ? We wont be printing the test result in our letterpad. There is no use (imo) to have file attachment option for all results , these can be made to be invoked only when needed for specific test. in 98% of time , lab staff will plainly enter values and keep moving on.

In the same picture we can see , among the confusion , there is second patient in the list …possibility of wrong entry ? I feel the page should display one patient value entry page for safety reason and to be foolproof.Anyway , since we will be either changing the UI or moving to different project , this is not an issue as of now i think , as you guys also deemed it non-priority.

I did see openmrs 3? The UI is too good (strictly speaking from consumer pov :D) , wish we jump to it soon

Yes , i am creating a thread exclusively for my setup and need to contain them in one place , rather than start multiple threads.

Will be in touch with @mohant on whether i would be in a position to do all the requirement .

akhilmalhotra · January 17, 2024, 6:20am

Thanks for your feedback @dr.sivaram.mecheri. Glad to know you like Bahmni.

We can fix the symmetry issue of the boxes OpenELIS. We shall create a ticket for the same.

For the other issue of 2 patients on the same screen, I think you’re choosing the department-wise bulk result entry screen (Results → Entry → ‘xyz’ Department). I suggest using the ‘samples collected’ patient queue on the main OpenELIS dashboard. It allows one to select a single patient and enter all the results (irrespective of the deaprtment) for them. Here is a screenshot of the screen:

Edit: Here is the JIRA ticket: [BAH-3474] - Bahmni - JIRA

dr.sivaram.mecheri · January 17, 2024, 7:56am

Thats wonderful.

Also the text and value entry points needs to be close to each so that staffs can have better visual entry point.

I wont be continuing here … Am getting a separate thread for all my query.

Yes i was doing it wrong as for patient entry.

The collect and collected tabs are TOOOO CLOSE to each other !!

Atleast a color variation would help and lot or positioning the two in each corner(left and right aligned) would solve roughly ? it can align itself for mobile UI also ?

Ok as i said , dont want to keep going on with this thread… am marking all such tiny things into one single thread.

will see you guys there.

Happy Pongal !!